reduced loads for 204 or 223 .

[deadkelly]

originaly i wanted a 22 mag - 22 hornet for hares & foxes . 20m - 200m .
i have been using 22 lr & 22.250 but the "250" is to loud & 22lr lacks on the range & wind .
but i'm thinking i might get away with a 204 or 222 or 223 with reduced / milder loads ?????
that would allow me to have full power loads if the oppertunity arises .
i just want a mild fox & hare round with mild report with the most useable range vs muzzle blast .
i reload & have all the gear for the hornet which i love .
i think there's more options of rifles if i get a 223 + with heavier bullets & full charges i could use it as a light walkabout gun for small - medium game .
& a 204 with full loads can reach way out & tag the small stuff .
but the old 222 might respond better to a milder powder charge ?????
can i do this all with one rifle ?????

[JasonF]

I am walking the same path. I have a 223 sporter which is nice and accurate with full power loads. I just purchased some TrailBoss powder. I am going to try and find an accurate load with a cheap projectile at velocities somewhere between a 22 magnum and a hornet, with a quiet report for use in more populated areas (I live on 20 acres).

I definitely think what you are suggesting is possible.

[Con]

Have a read:

https: //www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbth ... ost4297903

Cheers...
Con

[deadkelly]

Have a read:

https: //www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbth ... ost4297903

Cheers...
Con

i tryed but it wouldn't work

[Con]

i tryed but it wouldn't work

I'll cut and paste it here. This guy knows his Blue Dot and has been collecting results for years. They are reduced velocity, but not reduced pressures. Best to work up as always and DONT accidently double charge!
Cheers...
Con

per request:

Dot Range Report: 223 Caliber ( Full )

Bullet Weights Tested:
1. 35 grain Hornady V Max
2. 40 grain Hornady Vmax
3. 45 grain Sierra SP
4. 50 grain Sierra SMP
5. 52 grain Sierra Boat Tail Match
6. 55 grain Winchester FMJ

Rifle Used: Ruger 77 Mk 2, VT 26 inch Barrel, Stainless Steel First yr Model

Case: Lake City Surplus, previously fired

Primer: Remington 6 ½

Powder: Blue Dot

Charge Weight Tested: 4 grains to 14 grains.


Weather: Sunny, NO clouds, 80 degrees, NO wind,

Altitude: 2000 ft

Humidity: Very Low


Field Results:


35 grain Hornady V Max:

4 grs: 1284 fps
5 grs: 1488 fps
6 grs: 1862 fps
7 grs: 2163 fps
8 grs: 2392 fps

9 grs: 2636 fps
10 grs: 2722 fps
11 grs: 3076 fps
12 grs: 3205 fps
13 grs: NO Reading
14 grs: 3518 fps



Hornady 40 grain Vmax:

4 grs: 1161 fps
5 grs: 1538 fps
6 grs: 1798 fps
7 grs: 2148 fps

8 grs: 2243 fps
9 grs: 2539 fps
10 grs: 2771 fps
11 grs: 2956 fps

12 grs: 3013 fps
13 grs: 3218 fps
14 grs: 3375 fps


Sierra 45 grain SP

4 grs: 1239 fps
5 grs: 1447 fps
6 grs: 1688 fps
7 grs: 1880 fps

8 grs: 2118 fps
9 grs: 2363 fps
10 grs: 2553 fps
11 grs: 2811 fps

12 grs: 2875 fps
13 grs: 3008 fps
14 grs: 3164 fps


Sierra 50 grains SMP

4 grs: 1064 fps
5 grs: 1345 fps
6 grs: 1624 fps
7 grs: 1788 fps

8 grs: 2033 fps
9 grs: 2257 fps
10 grs: 2466 fps
11 grs: 2655 fps
12 grs: 2779 fps

13 grs: 2882 fps
14 grs: 3038 fps


Sierra 52 grain Boattail Hollow Point Match

4 grs: 1061 fps
5grs: 1460 fps
6 grs: 1632 fps
7 grs: 1916 fps

8 grs: 2142 fps
9 grs: 2225 fps
10 gr: NO Reading
11 grs: 2673 fps

12 grs: 2782 fps
13 grs: 2879 fps
14 grs: 3012 fps


Winchester 55 grain FMJ

4 grs: 896 fps
5 grs: 1264 fps
6 grs: 1568 fps
7 grs: 1825 fps
8 grs: 1994 fps

9 grs: 2201 fps
10 grs: 2328 fps
11 grs: 2453 fps

12 grs: 2677 fps
13 grs: 2821 fps
14 grs: 2915 fps



Notes:

1. IN the evaluation of the 223, I came further to the conclusion of the versatility of the 223 in the use of training new shooters, and for a very versatile varmint caliber.
2. Essentially the 223 can be loaded to the specs of a 22 Long rifle, a 218 Bee, a 221 Fireball, a 222 Remington, a 22 Hornet, and a 22 Win Mag., while allowing the shooter to be able to pick the type of bullet that he prefers.
3. Bullets were limited to use of 35 grains to 55 grains. Heavier bullets will not serve any purpose unless a 223 is to be used for deer hunting. I do not believe that their would be a significant difference in the use of a 55 grain bullet vs a 60 grain bullet.
4. The recoil on the lighter loads using 4 to 6 grains of powder had minimal recoil if any at all. These would be ideal for young shooters being trained.
5. Noise level on the lighter loads ( 4 to 6 grains) were on par with a rim fire. An increase in noise level was very noticeable above 7 grains, but still very acceptable. ( No sounding like a rim fire any more)

Noted Observations:

1. It was noted but not considered part of the testing, with a tree used as a back stop for some of the testing, that all bullets ( 45 to 55 grains)penetrated thru the tree at a distance of 20 yds.
2. The diameter of the tree was measured at 5 inches.
3. The 40 grain Vmax loads failed to penetrate the tree at loads above 10 grs, above 2771 fps. However at 10 grains and less, the bullets penetrated thru the tree and did a large amount of damage ( like turning the wood into tooth picks) on the exit side of the tree. The penetration stopped at the 5 grain load.


Some of the Author’s Conclusions:

1. I learned some significant items beyond the versatility of the 223 with the bullets tested, but focusing on its use in the field, got some ideas.
2. A light rifle such as a Winchester Featherweight or Rugers Compact model with a 16.5 inch barrel or the Ultra Light with a 20 inch barrel would make a good combo with the use of Blue Dot.
3. Since the powder is burned cleanly in the first 10 to 12 inches of barrel, the shorter barrels are not handicappiing velocity in the lighter shorter rifles.
4. The penetration of the 40 grain Vmax into the tree did make me ponder the use of those plastic tip varmint rounds as potential loads for small deer for youth shooters. Just like my observations in the larger calibers, the plastic tipped bullet seem to do a lot more damage, at velocities under 2700 fps. The Vmax surprised me. This is a decision any shooter will have to test on his own and make their own decisions. I am just passing on that I saw potential merit in the application.
5. Although one has to weigh out the potential of Plastic Tipped Varmint bullets on bigger game like deer and antelope, some of these loads in real life use, utilizing Barnes’s X bullets in 22 caliber I can recommend. They make a 45 grain, 50 grain and 53 grain bullet. The way I saw much better penetration and more damage in wood, at the lower range velocities, 2200 to 2700 fps, this would make a good deer load in many parts of the USA, and recoil is minimal.


I did not test any bigger bullets as I feel that those tested would be represent the best potential with the powder. 60, 63, 64, 65 grain bullets and then the larger match bullets did not give what I considered useful velocity when I have shot them before with Blue Dot, in respect to their field design uses.

Updated Feb 2008

cheers
seafire

[Con]

One more. Again be careful!!
Cheers...
Con


Guys,

one of the forum guys asked me for this, and now I can't find out where or who it was...so I'll just post it here..

As always, this is being posted for academic reference only.. it is SAFE in MY RIFLEs.. and I can only guarantee that..

if anyone uses this data, they do so at their own benefit and their own risk.. so they must make that personal decision..
I can have no control over their load techniques and procedures...hence am not responsible for any harm they might cause to themselves, their property or others around them..

if anyone does use it, it is assumed they are smart enough to work up and make sure the load is safe in their rifle...

that being said:







Here is the following info on that range report:
this should help you out.. remember to charge a case and then seat the bullet before going onto the next cartridge, that will eliminate the chance of an accidental double charge.. blue dot is bulky tho.. near max charges will not be a problem...

223 Range Report

Powder: Blue Dot

Bullet: Berger 30 grain HP, Varmint

Rifle Used: Ruger 77 VT

Barrel Length: 26 inches

Primer Used: Winchester Small Rifle

Bullet O.A.L. : 15.55 mms

Cartridge O.A.L. : 57.93 mms


10 grs: 2844 fps

11 grs: 3082 fps

12 grs: 3210 fps

13 grs: 3407 fps

14 grs: 3712 fps

15 grs: 3797 fps

15.5 grs: 3814 fps

16 grs: 3873 fps

16.5 grs: 3957 fps.

Accuracy Potential:
Load of 15 grains of Blue Dot, 30 gr Berger, WSR primer:
5 shot group size@ 100 yds: 0.4260 –0.224 bullet diameter = 0.202 group size
Scope: 6.5 x 20 Simmons.. setting at 10 Power.

Personally my max load is 15 grains.. the extra 150 fps between that and 16.5 grains is not much gained..

Again, these are for academic reference only, anyone using these do so at their own risk, as I can not be responsible for other people’s loading techniques.. these proved to be accurate in my firearms…

seafire
feb 2008

[deadkelly]

wow that's a wicked link there con . that just about sells the 223 dosn't it .
& using blue dot would allow the use of a short light barrel & it wouldn't heat up very much .
& very cheap to shoot even with full power loads .

[dangaff]

How low could you get a 204 too, if you wanted to reduce loads?

[Con]

How low could you get a 204 too, if you wanted to reduce loads?

Here's a start ... again ... be careful as some have reported the 204 gets a bit sensitive with Blue Dot and a double charge will wreck your day in a most dramatic way. I've used Blue Dot in 358Win, 7.62x54R, 222Rimmed, 243Win and will start the 223Rem soon.
Cheers...
Con

First I wish to sincerely thank Capt Dave Funk for his donation of a take off Ruger Barrel that allowed this testing to be done...his forum member handle is f224

His website is www.BlaserPro.com

Thanks Dave! this is dedicated to you!
Seafire and Seafire Jr..
beer

204 Ruger and Blue Dot

Rifle used: Ruger 77 Mk 2

Barrel: 22 inches

Primer used: Winchester Small Pistol

Bullets used: Hornady 32 and 40 grain V Maxes.


32 grain Vmax:

5grs: 1588 fps
6grs: 1849 fps
7grs: 2012 fps
8grs: 2300 fps
9grs: 2472 fps

10grs: 2709 fps
11grs: 2890 fps
12grs: 3012 fps
13grs: 3212 fps
14grs: 3372 fps


40 grain Vmax

6grs: 1734 fps
7grs: 1966 fps
8grs: 2197 fps
9grs: 2321 fps

10grs: 2546 fps
11grs: 2709 fps
12grs: 2874 fps
13grs: 2892 fps
14 grs: 3140 fps


Starting charges were determined based on work with the 223 cartridge.

Both bullet weight’s charges were stopped at 14 grains, as going higher didn’t show any real increase in velocity but did show pressure signs starting.

Accuracy was what I have come to expect with Blue Dot.

Small pistol primers were used based on availability.. this was done during a nationwide primer shortage. Small rifle primers would not show any potential increase in velocity or pressure, based on experience with the 223 case.

As always a prudent handloader will work up to max charges, to make sure they are safe in their rifle.

This is presented as for academic review only, as I can not be responsible for other people’s handloading procedures.

If the lighter charges are used, I recommend charging a case and seating the bullet first, before going onto the next cartridge as this will eliminate the potential of a double charge.

With a max of 14 grains per case, a pound of Blue Dot will yield powder for 500 rounds of ammo.

Seafire
February 2008.

[Con]

wow that's a wicked link there con . that just about sells the 223 dosn't it .
& using blue dot would allow the use of a short light barrel & it wouldn't heat up very much .
& very cheap to shoot even with full power loads .

deadkelly,
Seafire originally started his Blue Dot experiments with two things in mind. Teaching kids to shoot and reducing wear and tear on the equipment. If your happy to shed a few hundred fps then Blue Dot can often be quite useful and the charges are quite small. BUT ... your loading technique has to be 100% spot-on in eliminating any chance of a double charge. I'll always weigh, charge and seat a projectile rather than use a loading block and risk double charging as the light charges wont spill powder over. If distracted, I'll dump a load and start again. Personally, I also never run close to what seafire lists as maximum. That's what makes Trail Boss safer in some respects, we have load data and its so bulky you cant double charge. Blue Dot can also show variations between lots, so again caution is required.

I thought I was being pretty radical using Blue Dot, until some old timers at the range told me they'd been using Green Dot with 123gr SKS projectiles in their 303s donkey's years ago. I also run Alliant 2400 in my 444Marlin as why burn 50gr of powder to practice when a load of 25gr is listed in the manual? Interestingly, 30 years ago, Alliants manual used to show some Blue Dot loads with jacketed and cast projectiles ... but no more. I believe seafire has corresponded with Alliant on his Blue Dot loads, but the chance of a double charge ruining your day means it will never appear in a loading manual again.
Cheers...
Con

[JasonF]

That's what makes Trail Boss safer in some respects, we have load data and its so bulky you cant double charge.

Con

What Trail Boss data have you found for the 223? The Hodgdon website only lists a subsonic load - 55 GR. HDY FMJ + 4.0gr Trail Boss for 1074fps.

I haven't tried their method of determining case capacity yet (http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf)

Cheers, Jason.

[Con]

JasonF,
TrailBoss sells at $135 here ... too expensive for me to try it. The recommendation made by Hodgdon is good. Just dont compress the bugger and you'll be safe according to them and it gives you your maximum loading. Its a fast burner with the advantage of being so bulky you wont double charge. I also never use heavy-weight pills when making my reduced loads, I like to stick to the lighter weight projectiles to keep everything 'on my side' safety wise.

In a 223Rem I'll happily go with Blue Dot ... because I'm up on its tricks, have used it before ... and if something goes wrong ... I know I only have myself to blame. A good place to look for reduced load data is the Lyman Cast Bullet manual, but also Lee's 2nd Edition reloading manual as it has reduction factors for many powders and loads. I'd almost be willing to bet a load using AR2205 could also be determined for the 223Rem ... AR2205 was a brilliant reduced load performer in the 375H&H.
Cheers...
Con

[frakka]

Did you settle on a load Jason...? I found some detail on other forums regarding trailboss/223:

I recently loaded some .223 with TrailBoss using this method. It came out as 6.7 grains of Trailboss which was 75% of max volume, Bullet is a 52 gr. Hornady BTHP match, coal is 2.248

I have used 6.5 grains of Trail Boss in the 223 (a 85% load per my calculations) with 50 grain bullets. Is about 1,600 feet per second and just as accurate as a full power load in the particular barrel.

It is considerably less noisey than a full power 223 load, I would say about 1/3 the level of a full power load, maybe even a little less. It also has a softer sound, not a crack sound.

8.2gr trail boss and 35gr vmax is awesome. 2300fps which is perfect with very, very good accuracy.

8gr under a 40gr Sierra HP, or Hornady 45gr Bee. Both bullets shoot nickle size groups out to 100yds.

Looks like 100% with a 55gr bullet is about 8.5gr, I intend to have a look at this in time.

I like this quote by a guy used to loading large capacity cases, he was referring to the 223: "Like trying to pour cheerio’s into a gnat’s hind leg.:

[JasonF]

Did you settle on a load Jason...?

Yep. 8.6gr TB under a 34gr Midway Dogtown HP for 2200fps. Works like a 22WMR but is more accurate. This is a max load using the capacity method linked above.

[cam_mackps2]

Trailboss is great for reduced loads, you just can't stuff up and make a bomb.
I use it in my 17Rem, i haven't bothered making a load for my 223.
I have gone for near max load as my 20gr Vmaxs just weren't readily expanding.
The manual says they should be launched at 2500fps+.

So i would look for a projectile that is designed for lower velocity cases like the 22hornet.
That way the projectiles can expand like it should and not pin hole through.